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Recently, a school diversity task group in New York City wrote a report recommending that the public school district eliminate gifted and talented programs, claiming that they contribute to segregation and racial inequality. Following Brown v. Board in 1954, one of the ways white schools pushed back against integration was by creating more advanced classes that catered to white students, but that was 65 years ago. Today, in the New York City public school district, admission into the more selective programs are based off of things like test scores which some claim favor Caucasian and Asian students who generally have greater resources to prepare for admission tests, putting African-American and Hispanic students at an unfair disadvantage, thus leading to increased segregation. However, others believe that having these gifted and talented programs prevent segregation because they encourage Caucasian and wealthy families to put their kids in the public schools rather than putting them in private schools or moving to the suburbs.
As it stands, although I do recognize there is racism baked into these special programs, I think that getting rid of gifted and talented programs that provide a more rigorous academic education to students would be extremely harmful because then those who can’t afford to go to a private school or move to another school district would have little to no options if they want to pursue a more rigorous education. I think a better approach to this situation would be to fix the current system.
Discussion Questions
1. As a student who attends a school that offers several AP classes, do you think these programs should be eliminated?
2. If you were a student in the NYC public school district, would you support or fight the elimination of gifted and talented programs based on the claim that they are racist?
3. Are there any ways the existing system can be fixed so it is more equal?
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Recently, a school diversity task group in New York City wrote a report recommending that the public school district eliminate gifted and talented programs, claiming that they contribute to segregation and racial inequality. Following Brown v. Board in 1954, one of the ways white schools pushed back against integration was by creating more advanced classes that catered to white students, but that was 65 years ago. Today, in the New York City public school district, admission into the more selective programs are based off of things like test scores which some claim favor Caucasian and Asian students who generally have greater resources to prepare for admission tests, putting African-American and Hispanic students at an unfair disadvantage, thus leading to increased segregation. However, others believe that having these gifted and talented programs prevent segregation because they encourage Caucasian and wealthy families to put their kids in the public schools rather than putting them in private schools or moving to the suburbs.
As it stands, although I do recognize there is racism baked into these special programs, I think that getting rid of gifted and talented programs that provide a more rigorous academic education to students would be extremely harmful because then those who can’t afford to go to a private school or move to another school district would have little to no options if they want to pursue a more rigorous education. I think a better approach to this situation would be to fix the current system.
Discussion Questions
1. As a student who attends a school that offers several AP classes, do you think these programs should be eliminated?
2. If you were a student in the NYC public school district, would you support or fight the elimination of gifted and talented programs based on the claim that they are racist?
3. Are there any ways the existing system can be fixed so it is more equal?
I don't believe it's right to limit educational opportunities in public schools as they are tax-payer funded, but I would not necessarily put my support behind an argument of racism. Instead, I think the racism factor here exists as part of the larger problem of the people perpetuating de facto segregation. Either way, the simple solution would be to open up the more intellectually challenging and stimulating classes currently offered to "gifted students" to all students. If limitations are reached based on the funding of these programs, limits should be placed on everyone equally instead of on certain demographics. That being said, I think it would be a mistake to compare such programs to AP because AP is open to all students. In any case, destroying barriers in the education system would be a good first step towards curbing the long-term effects of racism and de facto segregation, but it is far from enough.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to question one, I believe that these programs should not be eliminated. As said in your summary, eliminating these programs would take away opportunities for many students who would like to partake in rigorous academic courses. At Aragon, we have a variety of AP/honors/difficult courses offered to us. And, without these options, we would not be challenged and learn differently and critically. Additionally, in regards to question 3, a possible way for gifted programs to include all races and to be diverse is, for the school to possibly offer resources to the students who can't afford resources.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I don't believe gifted programs are the root of inequality, but more a result of it. Although these programs do benefit specific students with more time to study,the core purpose of gifted programs is to provide opportunities, not take them away. Without them,many gifted students would be highly bored and not learning as much as they should be in class, and other students would not be learning any more than they would be otherwise. All in all, I don't believe that GT programs were created to reinforce segregation.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Sahana, I believe that Nathan is not referring to AP classes in general but rather to elementary and middle school gifted and talented programs which students cannot enroll in simply by choosing to do so.
A solution to this problem is likely to follow the AP model of students choosing which class they believe they can be challenged and learn in, rather to testing into them. No student would stay in a class too easy, nor would a student remain in a class where they cannot understand what is happening. They key is simply to allow students to explore each class in the starting weeks of school and ensuring that GT is the student's choice themselves, rather than a parents.
-JUNG HAYE
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ReplyDeleteGifted and talented programs offer students a more rigorous curriculum based on merit, and isn't itself an inherently racist system. Instead of getting rid of a program that simply reflects the result of redlining and systemic racism, there should simply be more programs implemented in schools, public libraries, and other institutions that help promote inclusion and equity for those of low socio-economic status. These programs could be free and offered through regional or private funding, but instead of taking away more programs, there should be simply be additives to complement the existing ones and to promote equity. We are extremely privileged at Aragon to receive not only AP, honors and AS classes, but many other opportunities that many of us take for granted. If I was a student in the New York public school district, I would fight the elimination of the gifted and talented programs because they offer an invaluable resource for those who already don't have many. However, in order to increase equity among all students, more programs should be implemented to provide further resources.
ReplyDeleteSay we are gardening and want our plants to grow taller. We wouldn't trim the tall plants; instead, we would give the short plants more water to make them taller while making sure our tall plants stay tall. In an educational context, this means that if we want to improve overall educational quality, we should increase accessibility of gifted programs. I agree with many of my peers that openly accessible programs such as AP should be promoted. If a student wants the challenge of a harder class, he or she should be able to make this choice. If the same student is overwhelmed in an advanced class, he or she could switch back to an easier class. This is a self-regulating system! To ensure more students choose to take difficult classes and can keep up with them, schools should provide more resources for socioeconomically disadvantaged students.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the first time I've heard a proposal to close the achievement gap by lowering the ceiling rather than raising the floor. In education, the issue of the "achievement gap", which is the difference in achievement between students of low and high socio-economic status is often raised as an issue. Objectively, the existence of the achievement gap is irrefutable. However, the way to achieve equity is NOT to hold back gifted students.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the discrimination issues raised by programs for "gifted" students are real, there are also issues with eliminating these programs entirely. It would create an entire generation of students who were never challenged in school, had no passion for any subject, and had no opportunity for an experience that would actually prepare them for college education.
Instead, we can use state or local funding to develop programs that help close the achievement gap from the bottom up rather than the top down. This could be in the form of offering prep classes based on need or in specific neighborhoods or redistributing funding from schools in affluent neighborhoods for the purpose of making sure EVERY school offers advanced courses. There are many more sensible proposals that extend opportunity to all students rather than eliminating it altogether.
While these gifted and talented programs, such as AP courses offered at Aragon, can favor certain groups because they may be able to prepare better, eliminating these programs won’t do anything to help groups that may be at an unfair disadvantage. This would only serve to hold back those who are “gifted”. I believe that Kai said this very well, we should not be cutting down the tall plants. At Aragon, our AP classes are offered to everyone, without the need to take an admission test. This means that anyone with the will to learn and the drive to take on the challenge can enter these classes. I think that this would be a good way to implement these “gifted” programs because this would open up opportunities to all and benefit those who are truly gifted.
ReplyDeleteAt Aragon, there are no tests of any sort to get into any of our advanced or AP classes; the only prerequisites are taking other classes before taking an AP or getting a certain grade in a previous class. Therefore, rather than eliminating advanced classes in any school, I feel that prerequisites should be implemented in the place of placement tests. Either this alternative or the existing test should be revised to address concerns of inequality. However, no solution should be eliminating opportunities for a more rigorous academic experience for all students. I believe that making the process of taking advanced classes more accessible is significantly more logical and practical to ensure equal and more opportunities for students.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Benjamin and Kai: abolishing "gifted and talented programs," or classes like APs that fall under that umbrella, does not address the root of the inequality. For a theoretical example, if Aragon decided that it was abolishing APs, a decent amount of people with the means and academic ability to take advanced classes would just shift to taking CSM classes or other similar programs, while the people who are academically qualified but financially unable to do anything besides anything offered through the school would be out of luck, and the people (the short plants) who need the assistance to grow aren't benefited at all. Eliminating GATE or AP programs would not benefit those who gain the most from having free programs available through schools. Trying to address concerns of inequality or lack of opportunity through editing the courses' content runs the risk of compromising their academic integrity and rigor; instead, the focus should be on making more opportunities available so that anyone who is sufficiently motivated to take advanced classes has a pathway toward taking them. At Aragon, no matter if you start in Algebra 1 or Precalculus, you have a pathway toward taking Calculus BC, obviously one of the most advanced math classes available at Aragon, by the time you graduate. This doesn't mean there are many "zero to hero" stories out there, or as many as we would hope given the opportunities available, but if anything that should be encouragement to guide more people down the paths to more advanced classes. How that should be done is another question besides simply making the opportunities available.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think AP classes count as a completely separate gifted program because there is no testing restriction- everyone has the same opportunities to sign up for them. I remember at my elementary school, there were gifted programs once every two weeks for kids who would be recommended into it by their current teacher. I think that is a much better system than the NYC’s public school district’s test for incoming kindergarteners. The article even said that testing children at such a young age is not very reliable in predicting who is actually gifted or not. Additionally, it seems like these special programs are locked once they start. So kids with higher socioeconomic status and access to early education resources would likely do better on the tests just because they are exposed to more, and literally start their education off with an advantage. I personally think gifted programs are great for students but these programs are so unequal- there is no way the regular schools offer the same resources as the gifted program facilities. For example, Carlmont has a special Biotechnology Institute with a $6.7 million lab building ONLY accessible to around 125 students who get into the program. They also get to go on special trips and have individual mentors. The school should give all students these opportunities because it is funded by the state. If everyone is paying taxes, everyone should have access. In fact, all schools in the district should be able to use it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the other comments regarding the fact that AP courses are not inherently unequal. In many cases, AP classes are open to all and require prerequisite classes over placement testing to take the class. In terms of the unfairness of having test scores determine a student's place in a class, I think just requiring prerequisite courses to be taken before the AP class should be enforced. In that way, any student who is interested in a certain AP class will be able to take it regardless of their scores on tests. To answer question one, I believe that the rigorous courses should not be eliminated as they provide students with more opportunities to expand their knowledge on topics they are interested in. I also think it is a good gateway to prepare students for how college courses will be like in the future.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that AP classes should be eliminated because there is no test required to take an AP class and the AP test is optional at the end of the year, so if students aren’t able to pay for the test, they can still take a college-like class and get the advantages of learning more rigorous material. There is also the option or getting a waiver for the test if applicable to the family’s financial situation. However, not all schools across the country provide AP classes, so that could possibly be an issue as well. If I was in New York, I would support eliminating the gifted and talented programs because they admit people on their ability to pass a test at 4 years old. 1 test does not say enough about a kid’s ability or their motivation or their character. A number does not define anyone. Like the article said, kids that don’t have the resources to “excel” are left behind. Test scores do not define those kids left behind. Exclusivity is toxic; kids learn a lot in school and they should be taught that exclusivity is good.
ReplyDeleteI believe that these programs should not be eliminated. It isn’t right to limit opportunities for students who want to further their knowledge. It helps students to be challenged which can help them learn better in the long run. Eliminating these programs will do more harm than good since it stops students from learning to the best of their abilities. Students should have a choice whether or not they want to be challenged; they are the only ones who know whether or not they want a more rigorous course because they like the subject and want to gain more in depth knowledge or whether or not they dislike a course which is why they would opt out of taking a challenging course. I agree with Nathan that it is more beneficial to fix the current system and I think Audrey brought up a good point on how to do this: by prerequisites. Anything is a better idea than simply taking away an opportunity. I think it is important to give students a choice on how they want to approach their own learning opportunities.
ReplyDeleteI do not think AP classes, honors, or advanced classes should be removed. Although some may see them as a way to get an "unfair advantage", I see these classes solely as method for students who desire a more advanced environment, to challenge themselves and deliver their best work. Again, people have their own opinions and can claim what they want, but these advanced classes are not reserved for people of caucasian and asian background. Anyone can take the classes, work their absolute hardest, and ultimately succeed... getting rid of the classes will only make a negative impact as the students who want to push themselves would no longer be able to. Furthermore, a way that the situation could potentially be improved is by advertising the advanced classes more, and convince the "african americans and hispanics" to take the classes and see how they do... Or, other than AP classes or honors classes, schools can implement a new type of class that targets the interests of these ethnic groups so they are persuaded to take the more advanced classes.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think these programs should be eliminated based on the claim that they are racist. They give students a chance to push themselves academically without their family having to pay high tuition for a private school, which is a big deal for middle and lower class income families. Since test scores are one of the determining factors for who is part of the programs, one way to avoid segregation would be for the school to have additional test resources available to all students, such as SAT practice tests, so everyone can have some type of test prep. Then from there, if there are some students that want more prep, the school could have a list of outside tutors and the school could give financial help to those that need it because tutors are expensive.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI don't think AP classes should be eliminated; they're accessible to all as long as a student expresses interest and they have proven that they can handle the work from grades and teacher observations. Regarding New York, GATE programs are not the inherent problem in this divide in equality, it's how New York handles the program. For instance, when I took my GATE test, it was after 3 years of public education, accessible to all. It makes no sense to have a GATE test before education is even provided publicly - that's akin to giving a test to someone who hasn't even learned the topic on the test and expecting them to do well, and 100% favors those who can pay for earlier education.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kevin in the case of classes being de facto segregated because of access to learning materials lacking in poverty stricken areas. Another aspect, however, to classes being seemingly segregated by ethnicity is the cloud of expectation and intimidation that shroud AP and gifted classes. As someone who was never the same race as the other kids in the gifted/AP classes, I can say that it is intimidating and insecurities in my capabilities naturally crept into my head because I didn’t see people who looked like me succeeding in those classes. Many kids feel those uneasy feelings and it could be a contributing factor to “racist” classes. Since there are no formal tests to get into AP classes, it is formally up to the students whether they want to take them. I feel that more emphasis should be put on uplifting minorities in the school system and encouraging them to be more than just their racial stereotype because Caucasian children see successful people everywhere in the media.
ReplyDeleteIt's interested to hear about gifted students in NY because I know right here in San Mateo we deal with the same thing. I personally think the program isn't accurate and unfair. I took a test in the 4th grade that called me "gifted" and I was offered to go to a "gifted school." My personal believe is that with nurture any student can retain the same information and can be taught the same strategies. I feel that the gifted program took individuals who at a young age had support in their education and fostered it better that "regular students" and I think that is the problem. If everyone has the potential to excel, why not use resources to give students the material they they need to excel themselves.
ReplyDeleteI definitely do not think these programs/classes should be eliminated for the claimed reason that they are racist. Such courses that are offered at Aragon, are not catered toward certain ethnicities or races. They are solely an opportunity for a student to take a college level class, one in which they would not have to pay nearly as much for in college, including the AP test itself. However, claiming that they are racist is overtly dramatized as everyone is able to choose whether or not they wish to take that class. There are no placement tests that may judge whether or not a student is mentally fit or capable of taking that class. The thought most likely derives from the dominant amounts of students from certain ethnicities who take these AP classes. Even so, those statistics are not dictated by the teacher administering the class, it the amount of students themselves that choose to be placed into a high level class that they believe they can manage and gain those credits for college. The choice is completely open to everyone and therefore such classes should not be considered even remotely racist.
ReplyDeleteBased on the claim of programs being racist, I believe that they should not be eliminated. These courses are offered for students to push themselves academically without needing to go to an overpriced private school, which may be a financial hardship for some families. Eliminating these programs would do more harm than good since it prevents students from reaching their full potential. A possible way to avoid segregation within these programs could be by offering additional test resources available to all the students so they all have the same basic opportunity for test prep. Moreover, a way this situation could be improved is by advertising the advanced standing classes more, and by encouraging the racial minority groups to take the course just to see how they would do.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that talented and gifted programs should be removed from schools because there are many students who feel that they need a bit more of a challenge and it is only fair for them to be able to have it. The gifted, and talented programs are not meant to be a form of racial inequality, but rather to get gifted and talented students to receive education at their level. On the other hand, I do see why many people do believe that the gifted and talented programs are racially unequal; people who are wealthier, usually Caucasians, have the money to get their children the resources necessary for them to learn and be advanced in school. People who are not as wealthy, usually minority races, can’t afford to get their children support for school, so their children can’t get into the talented and gifted programs.
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